Oct 262012
 

There has been some discussion on this blog recently in connection with our numismatic mintages.

Some collectors expressed irritation at the forthcoming release of a 2oz Silver Proof Lunar 12-Coin Collection, which in their eyes doubled the mintage of coins previously only available in an annual Three-Coin Set.

Similar concerns were raised about next month’s 2012 Silver Proof High Relief Four-Coin Set. Writers said that the release increased the mintages of Kangaroo, Kookaburra, Koala and Dragon high reliefs already available in individual presentation packaging.

I’d like to thank everyone who contributed to the discussion and to let you know your comments were considered at a full meeting of the marketing department, as promised.

 Total vs. Certificate Mintages

In response, the maximum number of collectable coins we are permitted to strike is actually established in the Currency Determinations issued by Australian Treasury under the Australian Currency Act 1965. We always state a maximum mintage when we apply for approval of a collectable coin.

In the case of the high relief Dragon, Treasury (as requested by the Mint) gave approval to strike up to 30,000 coins. Subsequently, we decided to release just 7,500 coins in individual presentation packaging – leaving a balance of 22,500 that could still legally be issued.

For obvious reasons of rarity and collectability, it is unlikely that we will ever do this, although we have decided to make an extra 1,000 available in the 2012 High Relief Year Set. In most people’s books, that’s a relatively minor increase in the overall quantity available in the market.

There are many other examples of this practice. Just 1,500 1oz Silver Lunar Typesets are issued annually. Each coin in this collection is also released individually, and this hasn’t previously been raised as a problem.

Australian Nugget 1oz gold proof coin collectors may well recall the many packaging variations on offer in 2005!

Some of the 2005 Australian Nugget packaging variations.

What we’re doing with the new 12 Coin Collection and the High Relief Year Set is entirely consistent with past practice. Not everyone likes it, but we try to make available a variety of combinations of our products to suit the tastes of various collectors.

Where redress is required, perhaps, is in the wording of our Certificates of Authenticity. Consequently, we have agreed to amend the Certificate mintage statement to include the words “in this packaging”.

For example:  The Perth Mint will release no more than 7,500 of these coins in this packaging.

(Some Certificates for future releases have already been printed and this may take a few months to implement fully.)

I’d like to remind readers that Perth Mint collectables remain exceptionally limited by comparison with several other world mints. Combined with superb design and manufacturing quality, these mintages play an important role in explaining why so many have become avid fans of our numismatic pieces.

 POST A COMMENT

  35 Responses to “Perth Mint ‘mintages’ – what we mean”

  1. Perth Mint:

    Nice save! The person comes up this idea about amending the certificate wording is awesome. It will be cheaper to re-print the COA than fixing the minted coins.

    Now The Perth Mint has officially admitted that the their COA and their limited packaging worth more than the silver itself.

    Shame on you Perth Mint.
    You really feel frustrated this time.

  2. Is the maximum number of collectable coins the Perth Mint is are permitted to strike for a given coin publicly available information? If so, where can it be found? The only information that I ever see is apparently the maximum for the given packaging option.

    Does the authorization for a maximum mintage ever expire? For example, in 2021 could the Perth Mint legally strike the remaining 21,500 of the 2011 High Relief Dragons that were authorized?

    • Hi CoinUpdate,

      No, the maximum number of collectable coins we are approved to make by the Australian Treasury in Canberra is not made public.

      Authorization for a maximum mintage does not expire. The passing of time does not affect the original Australian Treasury decision.

      Yes, in 2021 we could legally strike the remaining number of HR Dragon coins within the approved mintage. Would we do it? No, we manage availability of the coins responsibly with collector interests in mind.

      Kind regards

      Ron Currie

  3. Hello Ron,

    Thank you for your detailed clarification on the total vs “certificate mintages”. It is interesting to know how the mint is very much responsible and taking the right action in making sure that their numismatic items remains as collectible as they are.

    However, as coin collectors, we have slowly moved from total mintage to population of certain coins. Here’s a question, is the introduction of the 2oz Twelve coin lunar proof set increase the population of the 2oz proof lunar coins?

    Thanks and I am looking forward to your fast response. I do a lot of coin photography as well and I must say Perth Mint coins is one of those coins that has the most quality finish packed into their coins. Great job!

    • Hi Tokhibiscus

      Yes, the 12-Coin Collection of 2oz silver proof Lunars (Series II) increases the ‘population’ of 2oz coins in the market place.

      The 2oz coin is part of the annual Three-Coin Set (mintage 1,000). Sales to date of this Set (first issued in 2008) can be found here. We can continue selling these Sets until their full mintage of 1,000 is reached.

      The release of the 12-Coin Collection means that another 1,000 of each 2oz coin will be made available in the market.

      The potential ‘population’ of each annual coin, therefore, is 2,000 as part of these two packaging mintages. The actual population, of course, depends of sales.

      Regards

      Ron Currie

  4. Where redress is required, perhaps, is in the wording of our Certificates of Authenticity.

    PERHAPS? PERHAPS?

    Perhaps we should all stop buying these products if you’ll back on your word and mint shitloads of them.

  5. Perth, you better be careful !

    I’m a fan of Perth’s coins, but there’s many people who have told me they are very upset with your re-minting policy.

    So please listen to what I have to say.

    Your published literature indicates that “a” particular coin has a limited mintage.

    I think you better go re-read what your “BULLETIN” says.

    You may have approval from Government to mint above your quoted mintage but you are legally bound to enforce what is written in your publications.

    Consumers have every right Perth, to make a complaint via the ACCC.

    You also may get feedback from the WA Government via ministerials!

    Do you have permission to restrike coins from 1991 – 2007?

    I think the Treasury would be very interested to know, that you have taken the liberty to re-mint bullion as well as numismatic products.

    A limited mintage to most people means that in the year of issue no more than a set quantity of coins will be produced!

    A mintage limit gives investors a bench mark.

    If the coins that year don’t reach the limit then so be it.

    If there is demand for the coins but a mintage is set in place, we know that no more coins will be produced.

    It’s pot luck for the buyer / investor.

    You need to re-analyse your policies and objectives and be aware of your legal obligations IAW Australian law (ACCC).

    Kind regards

    Billy Black Smith

    • Hi Billy

      Thanks for your usual useful insights.

      Our advertising is written in good faith with reference to packaging mintages. These blog comments undoubtedly reveal, however, that we are not communicating our meaning effectively.

      As you know we are responsive to those who leave comments and I can assure you that we’ll be analysing your points and where required changing our policies to avoid any possible ambiguity.

      I look forward to addressing these issues on my return from the Beijing International Stamp & Coin Conference and communicating further in the near future.

      Kind regards

      Ron Currie

  6. I’m not trying be nasty here just honest but knowing this seriously puts me off collecting numis coins now. Nowing that at any time you can reissue the same coin just puts me off totally. I respect what the mint is trying to do and understand why but I don’t have to like it.

  7. Dear sir, you can say whatever you want to justify doing what your doing, and most, if not all customers, do not have access or know of these total allowable mintage’s that you speak of. In any case, you do put out a superior product, but I think your misguided on the number of fans you may have, and I point out what I previously pointed out, you still have thousands of unsold “High Relief’s” on hand, at all of your distributor’s stores, and/or the dealers that buy from them. If these are what you say they are, then why so many still unsold. I’m sorry, but this is solely about the money, and I am sure in the future, and the world economy getting worse by the month, you will see the Distributors not taking the 50% figure that is stated on your page, or whatever they have in the past. Just look at Uber Coins, they have the HR Kangaroo coins now at $85 and change. Please don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining ! How about just listing from now on what your initially going to mint, along side the max. amount that you can mint ?, and folks can then decide what, and how many they will purchase. As I said before, I am one of many that bought 2 or more, and that we know now your true intentions, I will but only one, and for the collector in me. They are a work of art, but to invest in more, would be futile and not in this economy, or a healthy one, and not at over a $100 a pop, and then add S@H to boot ! Sorry, nice coins, but wrong philosophy. AKA “John in CT.”..Enjoy your spring !

  8. “certificate mintages” def: double talk for greedy commerce.

  9. Hi Ron,
    I have been looking forward to your response clarifying how the PM is dealing with mintages, so firstly thanks for taking the time to do so.

    As for your clarification I am very (unpleasantly) surprised that the PM is actually waiving the exclusiveness of their coins by redirecting this aspect towards the packaging.

    I always had the impression we were discussing coins on this site but apparently the PM has found a way to pass by on the subject of upsetting existing mintages which have been tagged already at the time of release, not only by a number but also with wordings like ‘extremely limited’.

    Though an increase of 13% on the high relief Dragon might seem not to be that much, adding another 1000 of 2oz proofs (or +100%) is something totally different, don’t you think?

    Sorry to say, but I can not see the link between “For obvious reasons of rarity and collectability, it is unlikely that…”, “The Mint is passionate about the interests of its collectors. Without collectors there would be no numismatic program!” and re-minting previous releases to this extend.

    As I have mentioned elsewhere, why is the PM accepting custom orders which are not resulting in new coin types anyway?

    Considering all administrative work necessary to make new coin types possible should this not have been part of the PM business model already years ago?

    In my view by being innovative you will distinguish yourself even more in the market and by upholding this so much appreciated ‘exclusiveness’ you will bond existing customers as well as attract new customers.

    Although I seriously have my doubts, I do want to plead to reconsider rather than to find the solution in re-wording of COA’s.

    Mzzl,

    Mokum

  10. Boycott Perth Mint!

  11. I thought PM was about the coins, not the packaging.

    You have an innovative product, perhaps focusing more on that inovative side to come up with new limited release products will bolster the bottom-line moreso than re-striking/re-releasing product previously believed to be limited. This decision to alter the certificates in order to release more product is quite simply a money grab!

    Integrity means a significant amount in this business, you have lost a significant amount of integrity even if your decision is veiled under the guise of being “allowed” to mint more under “The Act.”

    Collectors won’t forget.

  12. All due respect Ron!

    The fact is, consumers buying numimatic products have been told a lie by Perth.

    You state on published hard copy and also on your web site the following informnation:

    No more than X amount of these coins will be released!

    We are talking coins, not paper.

    If you sell a product, a company has an obligation to abide by what they advertise.

    By misleading the consumer, Perth may be breaking the law.

    I don’t know if you are breaking the law but as a humble collector of Perth coins, all I can say is, that when I buy a proof coin and I see the words:

    “No more than 7,500 of these coins will be released.”

    I buy the coin knowing that when I buy that “COIN” no more than 7,500 will be minted.

    Perth, have made a contract with me!

    I give Perth money and in return, you give me a coin.

    I get 0001 coin in 7,500.

    Again, please read what you advertise:

    EXTREMELY LIMITED MINTAGE
    No more than 7,500 of these coins will be released.

    Kind regards

    Billy Black Smith

    • Hi Billy

      Thanks for your aditional comments. As per Ron’s previous response, our references to packaging mintages are under review and the issue is on the agenda for discussion on his return to the office towards the end of next week.

      Kind regards

      Blog Team

      • Ok, now worries, so this will be my last post on this subject for now.

        I notice the AUSTRALIAN LUNAR SERIES II 2OZ SILVER PROOF COIN COLLECTION just released has wording that says:

        EXTREMELY LIMITED RELEASE
        The Perth Mint will release no more than 1,000 collections.

        Now if I compare that to what I’ve already written about on this Blog, the collectors are left scratching their head.

        I don’t know if you will mint more 2oz proofs, so how can I know that the coins in the set will have collector vaalue in the future?

        As collectors this is what we would like:

        1. If you decide on a limited mintage, provide a figure that includes all releases, including releases in Australia and overseas.

        2. Advise customers that Perth may make various sets but the limited mintage for an “individual” coin will not exceed the limited mintage.

        3. If you do have an order for additional coins in future years, for example the 2oz Proof mouse, strike it with the year it is released in the same way you did the final releases of the series one lunar coins. Or add a unique mint mark.

        4. If a client wants a restrike advise them that Para 3 above and that they have to pay for the additional charges. Perth you can make outcomes for the coins you produce, if clients don’t like your policy, I’m sure they would bend.

        5. Do not re-strike bullion coins like the Kookaburras with the same date as the original coins.
        Re-strike for sure upto your limit but strike them with the date they were restruck just like you did with the P20 set.

        These suggestions are my last, I hope you can bring back confidence to collectors and stackers.

        End.

        Kind regards

        Billy Black Smith

        Side note
        If when the meeting is convened, please address the issue of your coloured bullion coins.

        There is still a lot of confusion at Perth and in the market as to what is a specimen coin. Just because a bulloin coin is coloured doesn’t make it a specimen coin.

        A coloured bullion coin in ANDA packaging is not a specimen coin, especially when you market the same coloured coin in rolls, for example the 2oz Red ANDA coin release in Perth is available as a coloured bullion coin.

        What we would like as a collector and investor is a unique coin that stands out from the bulk coloured bullion coins.

        I want to pay for a limited coin that is unique, not a unique packaging.

        One way of fixing this is to say that each coin is a specimen coin because it’s hand sellected or an MS70 graded coin.

        End

    • Words very well put, Billy!

      Referring to a ‘contract’ made me do some quick research and it appears the indeed a COA is legally binding document to the extend proving the ‘goods’ authenticity and specifications.

      From what I have read so far basically anything mentioned on a COA should actually read ‘as is’, meaning that you can not deviate from what is actually mentioned.

      As soon as I have gathered more info I will share this among us.

      Mzzl,

      Mokum

  13. As much as I hate this new reminting policy, there is a simple way out of this:
    If you remint for example a 2008 coin in 2012 then you must put 2012 on the coin and not 2008. That solves all the problems and even adds a collectors value to the new coins. Not doing this misleads and alienates all collectors. Anyone who doesn’t see this needs a check-up.

  14. I have been a long time buyer of Perth mint coins but the last year or so has really turned me off on them. One example, I have bought a handful of HR dragons and agreeing to pay the suggested retail price while believing that the mintage advertised on the COA was truthful. Now you are releasing 1000 more of these coins! Even though the prices on the original releases have dropped back to what we paid direct from the mint? This new release of 1000 more coins will only hurt those of us that bought these coins during the original release.

    After perth went wild with all of the different dragon releases, minting coin after coin in every color available, adding privy marks ect, I decided not to buy one single year of the snake coin! Not even the HR snake.

    Now after seeing these re-releases of the HR coins, and the 2oz proof coins, I am glad I decided not to get any snakes.

    I will not be buying any more perth mint coins unless you change your business practices.

    What a shame, once some of the nicest numismatic coins in the world. Now the company seems to be taken over by greed.

    • I totally agree with you.

      You have made your point very clearly.

      As a long time Perth Mint buyer, I have stopped my purchasing from Perth Mint.

      I think as a coin collector, we should pay extra money for the uniquesness of the coin, not the different packagings.

    • Agreed,

      The COA states that “no more than XXXX amount will be released” as a collector that is exactly what I expect. At the end of the day the packaging has very little or no value and the COIN will stand the test of time.

      We pay a premium for these COINS for a reason Perth Mint.

      I too have ended my purchasing from Perth mint. My collection is 99% Perth Mint coins with the very occasional RAM but it’s time to start looking elsewhere.

  15. Hi All

    To emphasise that we are listening and concerned by some of these comments, The Perth Mint will be responding comprehensively in the near future.

    Kind regards

    Blog Team

  16. The most important thing is that you should tell us the maxium mintage will be at your first release, definitely it is not the sentence below! .

    “For example: The Perth Mint will release no more than 7,500 of these coins in this packaging”.

    • Most important thing is to convince Perth Mint that they should stick to ‘exclusiveness’ instead of dropping a bomb on any future releases again!

  17. haha secret mintage? Cannot wait Redback spider and opal koala re mint ;)

  18. Just wonder, what the difference between “no more x coin to be released” with “will release xx coin worldwide”
    Maybe, the first PM can issued same coin for outer aussie legally? Same with redback for russian?

  19. 刚在北京邮币展买过珀斯的币,大家要当心这家公司了,中国铸量是一年内有效,第二年不补铸就过期作废,珀斯网上的铸币量是一直有效,而且拒绝公开总量,也就是说哪天看到哪个币价钱高了,随时可以补铸。

  20. I am not going to buy any until they change the practice.

  21. “I am not going to buy any until they change the practice.”

    I totally agree …..

  22. So glad I read this before investing in perth mint products. I was very close to placing a big order. Now I will never buy anything from the perth mint. The world has become so shady, I guess I shouldn’t expect anything else these days.

    It sure pays to research everything & trust no one.
    Pretty much everything is a scam.

  23. The reminting of the kookaburras was just a rediculous decision, plain and simple! What dimwits at Perth Mint actually thought this was a good idea?? Just because they can go back and re mint a coin with the date and design of 1990s for example is almost fraud when it was minted almost 20 years after that date stated on the coin. But the worst part is that collectors who bought in each kookaburra year, did so thinking after that year there would be no more minted, and rightfully so! You will regret your greed Perth Mint! You have already done damage as many collectors wont want to buy coins of any year, especially unlimited mintage coins, when they could be minted again at anytime. Your company is a joke now!

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